Curse

Lord Mendes · Mar 06, 2007, 07:01 PM // 19:01

Well you know the Izzy way of solving skill imbalances: buffing its counter!!! Distracting shot now disables skills for 7 minutes. If people think it is too imbalanced, it might see a nerf in Q3 2007.

Thomas.knbk · Mar 06, 2007, 07:22 PM // 19:22

IMO the only thing imbalanced about it is that it scales with expertise. On a warrior you need to be quite conservative with it not to run out of energy in no time. Rangers can use it like mad.

Wild Karrde · Mar 06, 2007, 11:16 PM // 23:16

Riotgear: HB is Hundred Blades, Maybe not the best skill to use in this example but its an energy based warrior skill, which was what I was trying to get at.

And true rangers can use it like mad, but since they all usually have whirling defense and some running skill like dodge that block they usually wont bring it cause it could potentially be a wasted skill slot, also troll unguent will cancell out most condition degens. So the only conditions really being applied would be dazed weakness or blind From an Ele or a Mesmer no poison or bleed or cripple. And as I mentioned before anyone spamming MT is a melee bassed chareacter (or in ranger case needs to do damage with a weapon) and if they are spamming it they arent attacking, thus doing no damage, again eliminated themselves from the battle. And if they arent spamming it then the conditions are being reaplied. You all are thinking of MT from a "theres only conditions affecting them" point of veiw, Anyone who brings MT isnt doing it for the heal and you cant cancel a spike on someone with MT. And when killing someone you dont want to go 1 on 1 its stupid, you want to spike, so those complianing about all the conditions they are applying being removed and they cant kill this one person because of it, then you need to learn how to play. You cant just look at it and say OMG it removes TWO conditions and heals for a little AND you can spam it. You have to look at the situations it could be use in. Plain and simple you dont usually degen someone to death its meant more for an annoyance, even if your pouring the conditions on its meant to annoy not kill. You kill with spikes plain and simple.

Thom Bangalter · Mar 06, 2007, 11:19 PM // 23:19

please stop posting sir, I don't think you have a grasp on several things to contribute to this thread:

1) how to play warrior
2) how to play ranger
3) how to play split
4) how to play guild wars.

however, I do have a new TTN entry.

Ian McHuge Pecs · Mar 07, 2007, 12:07 AM // 00:07

Wild Karrde, thanks for the laugh.

and yes mending touch needs a slight nerf.

Falconer · Mar 07, 2007, 12:19 AM // 00:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thomas.knbk

IMO the only thing imbalanced about it is that it scales with expertise. On a warrior you need to be quite conservative with it not to run out of energy in no time. Rangers can use it like mad.

*sigh*.... okay lets turn this argument around.

It's not fair that assassins, dervishes, and every other caster class only need to pay 5 energy when they have twice as much energy regeneration as said warrior (or paragon)! From your agument, this is a logical conclusion of your position. It completely ignores the fact that warriors and paragons balance their energy usage w/ skills run on adrenaline which require no energy.

From a rangers perspective, why should a ranger have to pay a 33% PENALTY to use this skill when others get it for base price?! Where does that 33% penalty come from, it comes from the fact that rangers only have 3 pips regeneration vs. 4 pips for other energy only classes. Rangers either have to pay a hidden penalty cost to use a skill, or all those dervish/assassin/etc. have built-in 25% expertise which doesn't round! (it takes 3.75s to regain 5 energy at 4 pips, it takes 5s to regain that same amount of energy at 3 pips). (from the rangers perspective, he needs to wait 33% longer than a caster for the same amount of energy, from the casters perspective they get the energy in a 25% shorter timeframe than the ranger).

Warriors/paragons by the same token need 7.5s to regain that energy, but that's offset by the fact that a well constructed warrior does not need to spend energy on half his skills. (and by the paragons ability to pull in tons of energy from adrenal shouts).

Thinking outside the box... instead of raw recharge, cast time, etc. tweaks...
Look at starburst. If one condition is removed, it costs 5 energy (expertise would reduce this one), if a second condition is removed, this skill costs an extra 5 energy (just like starburst, which expertise does not reduce). Net cost of 7 for a ranger, net cost of 10 for others (same as 2 castings of mend ailment). (7 energy is 7s worth of regen for a ranger, and 10 energy is roughly 7s worth of energy regen for a 4pip class... meaning the cost baselines are practically equal for the 2 condition case).

Now for the problems I have w/ this skill:
People are bandying about the number 50-60 which is reasonable for a low-spec w/ leftover attribute points. But I'd like to point out this skill is easily a 130 point self heal for an actual monk. I've run this skill paired w/ draw conditions (which also heals me for bringing conditions onto me). I've played this skill on an El/Mo w/ a high prot spec for Aegis as well! Protection prayers does not lack for skills you'd want a medium/high'ish specs for.

Stop and consider, why was mend ailment hit w/ the nerf bat... because it was singlehandedly way too good in terms of self-condition removal. I'll point out that mend condition is still 2s recharge as an other only. Mend ailment was knocked to 5 because it was a very strong self-heal as well (easily 100 points if you have 2+ conditions on you by hook (opposition) or by crook (draw conditions)). And it was singlehandedly dominating over every other condition removal in the game.

The biggest problem w/ this skill is that no other spammable self-condition remover has the ability to dig out a buried condition. That is this skills single largest claim to fame. It's the one comparison point which is why it's brought w/ zero spec... it's brought w/ high spec because it's both that AND a respectable self heal.

So I repeat my thoughts from before, the skill would be much better balanced if it had a recharge of 5s per condition removed and/or it's raw healing power reduced to that of draw conditions (6..27). (EG: pull 2 conditions 10s recharge, 1 condition 5s same as mend ailment). I would still use it at those numbers for competitive play. Starburst's extra cost I like a lot as well, as it's semi-unique and I would gladly pay 5+5 to get a buried condition in a hurry paired w/ a strong self-heal (not your fault if you don't spec your skills).

Wasteland Squidget · Mar 07, 2007, 12:27 AM // 00:27

My only worry with nerfing Mending Touch is that it's the only thing that stops certain classes from being overpowered at the moment. Remember that Nightfall buffed condition application as well as removal. BA rangers already see play and I'd worry about a nerf to Mending Touch making them too strong. YAA isn't that great now, but it's only really held in check by the power of Mending Touch. Covered cripple and spammable burning are both incredibly strong if you can't reliably get them off.

Thom correctly points out that Mending Touch is stronger than other self-removals, but I could just as easily point out that Crippling Shot and Melandru's Arrows have been eclipsed by their stronger Nightfall equivilants. Arenanet introduced a lot of power creep in Nightfall, and it hit both sides. It's difficult to predict the effect a Mending Touch nerf would have on the meta, but skirmish templates that are already good would immediately get a lot better.

Incidentally, anyone who's saying the heal on MT is irrelevant hasn't played it enough on a warrior. When I play MT warrior I usually drop my strength to as low as 3 or 4 so I can beef up my prot prayers and tactics. With that spec, MT can easily give you a 70-80 point heal when removing two conditions, which is quite powerful in skirmish play.

Edit:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Falconer

Thinking outside the box... instead of raw recharge, cast time, etc. tweaks...
Look at starburst. If one condition is removed, it costs 5 energy (expertise would reduce this one), if a second condition is removed, this skill costs an extra 5 energy (just like starburst, which expertise does not reduce). Net cost of 7 for a ranger, net cost of 10 for others (same as 2 castings of mend ailment). (7 energy is 7s worth of regen for a ranger, and 10 energy is roughly 7s worth of energy regen for a 4pip class... meaning the cost baselines are practically equal for the 2 condition case).

The problem with this nerf is that the skill will still cost an effective 5 energy (less if you're a ranger.) The other cost can only be applied if you already have that energy in your pool.

To illustrate - I use MT when I'm at 15 energy and I'm reduced to 5 (net loss 10.) I use MT when I'm at 5 energy and I get the full effect, but I'm only reduced to 0 (net loss 5.) That nerf just makes me want to keep my energy pool at a low point so I can be ultra-efficent with the skill, then swap into a higher set when I need to spam other stuff. It would reduce the skill's effectiveness a little and add more weapon micromanagement, but I don't think it's the change people are looking for.

IMMORTAlMITCH · Mar 07, 2007, 01:00 AM // 01:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ruricu

If anything, Mending touch needs to be buffed to "skill" rather than "spell" if it were to take up the 5/1/6 setting... It's the only real way for a monk to remove a covered daze with their primary, but 1 1/2 sec easily interruptible is pretty brutal. I'm not saying it would be impossible to interrupt as a 1 second cast, but it would require a lot more skill and make it so taking Temple Strike into RA doesn't guarantee that you could kill Soul Wedding.

This would be a nerf really, no DF bonus.

the_deSKtructor · Mar 07, 2007, 10:41 AM // 10:41

what about:
Touched ally loses 0......2...3 Conditions and is healed for 10......40...50 Health for each Condition removed in this way.

Wild Karrde · Mar 07, 2007, 11:17 AM // 11:17

<--------- RETARD. I take back my comments. MT does need a SLIGHT nerf.

vapor311 · Mar 07, 2007, 02:35 PM // 14:35

Here's my two cents. Right now MT is an exceptionally strong play on a skirmisher in a metagame which is dominated by conditions. As a skill by itself when compared to other monk condi removals, I don't think that anyone would call it imbalanced or needing a nerf. However in an environment dominated by YAA warriors, blind bots, BA rangers, etc it becomes super great because of the fact that it can dig out buried conditions.

My question is that if the meta shifted away from conditions to hexes would anybody care how good MT was then? At what point do you rebalance a skill vs waiting for the meta to adjust around it?

MAdnRisKy · Mar 07, 2007, 02:42 PM // 14:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Falconer

Stop and consider, why was mend ailment hit w/ the nerf bat... because it was singlehandedly way too good in terms of self-condition removal. I'll point out that mend condition is still 2s recharge as an other only. Mend ailment was knocked to 5 because it was a very strong self-heal as well (easily 100 points if you have 2+ conditions on you by hook (opposition) or by crook (draw conditions)). And it was singlehandedly dominating over every other condition removal in the game.

Don't kid yourself, mend ailment was hit with the nerf bat because of it's prolific use on boon prot skill bars, in that environment it was considered too good (you could just spam it as a (self) heal if rof was charging). It could probably go back to the way it was, and indeed should do. The condition stacking assassins deserve it heh.

Razz L Dazzle · Mar 07, 2007, 06:54 PM // 18:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by vapor311

Here's my two cents. Right now MT is an exceptionally strong play on a skirmisher in a metagame which is dominated by conditions. As a skill by itself when compared to other monk condi removals, I don't think that anyone would call it imbalanced or needing a nerf. However in an environment dominated by YAA warriors, blind bots, BA rangers, etc it becomes super great because of the fact that it can dig out buried conditions.

My question is that if the meta shifted away from conditions to hexes would anybody care how good MT was then? At what point do you rebalance a skill vs waiting for the meta to adjust around it?

Covered conditions were meant to be powerful as of right now they're a +27 point heal for my ranger. (+54 total).

Tingi · Mar 07, 2007, 08:23 PM // 20:23

I agree , MT is a bit overpowered thus it is used widely in the meta. However, I don't think that the cast time should be changed to a 1sec cast, IMO that is unnecessary, but I DO think that the recharge should be changed. Most people here are suggested 6 seconds recharge, however I may go as far as saying a 8 sec recharge is suitable especially if you keep the casting time the same.

Effigy · Mar 07, 2007, 11:46 PM // 23:46

MT is a crazy awesome skill. I'd hate to have to badly nerfed, but I can agree with increasing the recharge to ~6 seconds. Everything else about it seems fine to me.

tomcruisejr · Mar 08, 2007, 02:57 AM // 02:57

I was called silly when I said mending touch is overpowered. This was liek when Nightfall is kinda new, you kno.

Thom Bangalter · Mar 08, 2007, 05:39 AM // 05:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by tomcruisejr

I was called silly when I said mending touch is overpowered. This was liek when Nightfall is kinda new, you kno.

people still call me silly for it on IRC. Ideally I'd just like for this to be on par with mend ailment, signet of malice, etc on warriors and rangers, and a really solid skill on a monk bar, which is why I think the scaling is the way to go. If a warrior wants to spec 9 in prot, I'm all for it.

Undressed · Mar 08, 2007, 09:01 AM // 09:01

Give it 7s cooldown and 1s casting time, remove the retarded "touch=no spell" mechanic.

Divineshadows · Mar 08, 2007, 06:35 PM // 18:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Undressed

Give it 7s cooldown and 1s casting time, remove the retarded "touch=no spell" mechanic.

No. That would absolutely kill the skill for monks.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thom Bangalter

people still call me silly for it on IRC. Ideally I'd just like for this to be on par with mend ailment, signet of malice, etc on warriors and rangers, and a really solid skill on a monk bar, which is why I think the scaling is the way to go. If a warrior wants to spec 9 in prot, I'm all for it.

To match mend ailment and signet of malice, the skill's recharge would need to be bumped from 4 to 5. Or mend ailment could be brought back down to a 4 (or even 2) second recharge. It would be key that the breakpoint for 2 conditions removed occurs at 9 prot (rather than 8), because it is a much more significant investment.

Thomas.knbk · Mar 08, 2007, 09:01 PM // 21:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Divineshadows

To match mend ailment and signet of malice, the skill's recharge would need to be bumped from 4 to 5. Or mend ailment could be brought back down to a 4 (or even 2) second recharge. I

IMO Mend Aliment could use a 2 second recharge. It's not like that would still be overpowered now that Boon is gone.